The ‘flower in the trash’: An Egyptian exile’s fight for truth and freedom - interview

This is strange because we are discussing countries with a peace treaty. Over the past forty years, there has been economic and security cooperation while Israel helped Egypt get terrorists out of Sinai. Hamas created those terrorists in the Sinai. But when Israel sought the help of Egypt against Hamas’s terrorism on October 7, to my surprise everyone in my country was celebrating the killing of the Jewish people.

It was shocking, especially after I saw the footage from October 7. I felt compelled to stand up for these people, for these victims who were killed in their homes in their pajamas. Why would anyone do this to women, children, the elderly, and helpless people?

Dalia Ziada: I'm facing attacks by Islamists, Egyptian gov't

Then I received horrible verbal attacks. When I started to do media interviews in Arabic, saying Hamas is a terrorist organization, they turned all the outrage against me. It stirred a horrible backlash that led to a group of radical Islamists who went to my family’s house looking for me. They wanted to punish me for not being a good Muslim.

The angry Arab audience was not shocking to me; what was shocking was when I contacted Egyptian security authorities to tell them I needed protection. The response from a very senior officer was, ‘We will have nothing to do with you.’ When I asked why he wasn’t against Hamas, he said, ‘This is not the issue.’ He said, ‘You support Israel.’ My crime was that I supported Israel. For the Islamists, my crime was that I criticized Hamas.

I ended up in a situation where I would be killed by extremists or arrested by the government. The arrest became very real when lawyers close to the Egyptian regime filed legal claims, accusing me of inciting war crimes in Gaza, threatening Egypt’s national security, and spying for Israel. So I had to leave immediately. Thank God, because of my work for years on Muslim-Jewish and Arab-Israeli dialogue, I had amazing friends around the world who came together to get me out of the country in five hours. I went to the US thinking I left the bad guys behind.

I was so shocked to find that the bad guys are here in the United States, and they are projecting hate in broad daylight, not only against Israel but also against America. They are trying to use the momentum of the Gaza war to destroy the United States, support Hamas, and legitimize terrorist organizations like Hamas and the Islamic regime in Iran. It was very scary to me.

I decided to fight back by speaking to as many people as possible, to the media, and on university campuses to tell them about the true Middle East. I’m very proud to say that over the past academic year, I visited 53 campuses.

It was amazing. I met students from all different backgrounds: Arabs, Muslims, Jews, and Christians. I was able to leave an effect on them that I hope will eventually change their hearts and minds and bring them back to the good side. The Egyptian government, the Egyptian people, and the radicals are not happy that I’m still able to speak and make an impact. I became even more influential after they pushed me out of Egypt.

Recently, new legal claims were submitted asking to revoke my Egyptian citizenship. Even if they sign papers saying that I am not an Egyptian anymore, they cannot change the fact that I am as Egyptian as the Nile, so let them do whatever they want.

How is your family in Egypt?

Unfortunately, they are not well. They are under serious physical threat and suffering from social shaming. My brother’s clients refuse to work with him because of my opinions. He doesn’t want to disown me in public; he’s defending my position. My family is considering moving because they can no longer live in the neighborhood because of these pressures, the neighborhood we have lived in our whole lives.

You spoke about the peace treaty. The Egyptian government considered it a security agreement, while the Israelis hoped it would be a peace agreement. Israelis wanted to go to Egypt to get to know the Egyptian people because people-to-people exchanges are most important. But almost no Egyptians visited Israel. There seemed to be a time about six years ago when there was some movement to change what was going on in the mosques and the schools. That progress has been reversed. So, can you tell us what is being taught today regarding Israel and Jews to understand contemporary Egypt?

Let me go a little bit backward. Since the establishment of Israel, it has always been referred to by Arab leaders as the enemy, even after we had a peace treaty with Israel.

Why?

Because it served corrupt and failing Arab regimes, like in Cairo. It’s always a good tool to distract the public from their economic problems or the failures of the regime running state affairs, referring to an enemy at your border. But after the Arab Spring, we discovered that the enemy is not Israel – the enemy is Hamas. Israel did not infiltrate the Sinai and try to kill our soldiers; it was Hamas who killed our people – Christians and even Muslims. At a Friday prayer, they killed 300 men in one day from one tribe in Sinai because the tribe refused to cooperate with them against Egypt.

When Hamas started this in the Sinai, President Sisi spoke to our counterparts in Israel and asked for help, allowing Egyptian troops to block the border and prevent Hamas from entering. Israel agreed (even though it was against the peace treaty). For the first time in 2014 and 2015, we saw Egyptian and Israeli troops fighting together against Hamas. It was amazing.

When Hamas infiltrated the Sinai, they built terrorist cells composed of young people from the Sinai tribes sympathetic to Hamas. The groups merged, forming a bigger terrorist organization at the beginning of 2014; it was a big time for ISIS. These terrorist groups in Sinai became very powerful thanks to Hamas and paid allegiance to ISIS while operating against the Egyptian people and army. Israel was fighting on our side, and we got rid of the terrorists in 2015.

Initially, we closed the border and tunnels (the Philidelphi Corridor), but a few years later the tunnels linking Gaza and Sinai reopened; it’s a big business for the Sinai tribes. The tribes made deals with Egyptian intelligence and leadership. Corruption was involved because the Egyptian security authorities profited from the Sinai trade. The conditions were that it would be one way, from Sinai to Gaza, but nothing came from Gaza into Sinai, and the tribes kept that promise. This led to October 7.

(On the other hand, there was a) new security relationship with Israel in the aftermath of the Arab Spring, with economic cooperation between Egypt and Israel in the Mediterranean over exploration and exporting of natural gas to Europe. It created an economic bond between Egypt and Israel. And as a result, the government initially tried to change the mindset of the public about Israel. Sisi was genuine when he said he wanted a good relationship with Israel, even the (negative) narrative about Jews in textbooks.

But Sisi is not the only one ruling the country. The intelligence and military run the state and foreign affairs. Unfortunately, it’s still part of the military ideology in Egypt that Israel will always be our enemy, even after we signed the peace treaty with Israel in 1979. Unlike the Abraham Accords, it’s called a strategic agreement, not a peace treaty.

So, after the initiatives to reform (hostility to Israel) by Sisi, over the past years they flipped because the entire system is still very antisemitic. The military, diplomatic corps, intelligence services, and the public are still very antisemitic. The general public, because of their Islamic background and religious piety, is very sympathetic to groups like Hamas and thinks they are doing a good thing. So, put all this together and understand why Egypt has turned against Israel.

When you break down the electorate in Egypt’s last election in 2011, some 80% voted for the Muslim Brotherhood or the Salafists. This begs the question: Are the Egyptian people post-October 7 still as radicalized as before, and will they be in a post-Hamas world?

Unfortunately, the majority of the people at the grassroots level are poor, live in rural areas, and are still very radical. Those fighting against the Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafists are the intellectual elite and the middle class, who are very concerned about losing their lifestyle because of these Islamists. But they are not against their radical ideology when it comes to Israel. For the poor rural people, this idea of Islamism, the Muslim Brotherhood, is more important than the state. The Salafists in particular have a huge influence on the rural people, at least 60% or 70% of the population.

I was in Doha, and I met with the managing editor of Al Jazeera. How much of a negative influence is Al Jazeera in the Arab world? Both Democratic and Republican administrations say Qatar is an American friend, even though Al Jazeera America was kicked out of the US.

So how dangerous is Al Jazeera in the Arab world?

Very, very dangerous.

I want to refer you to a document published by the Muslim Brotherhood (MB) called The Project. It is a 100-year plan for how the Muslim Brotherhood is going to dominate the hearts and minds of everyone in the world, advocating for its cause and gaining empowerment. It means political and economic empowerment to build its own caliphate system. This is the project of the Muslim Brotherhood. One of the main goals of this project is to create a media network that can mobilize people and affect public opinion, not only among Muslims but worldwide. The target is not Muslims. The target is the West. 

Al Jazeera is exactly this. Al Jazeera was created by Qatar, which is supportive of the Muslim Brotherhood ideology and supportive of radical Islamism in general, and the Muslim Brotherhood is not even hiding it. It uses Al Jazeera to advocate for radical Islamist ideology by whitewashing [groups] like Hamas. Al Jazeera is also the same channel that’s now promoting or trying to whitewash HTS and al Sharra in Syria.

Is the organization and radicalization of American college campuses related to the Muslim Brotherhood project?

Yes. Oh, my God. I’m working on a research paper with ISGAP, the link between what’s happening on Western campuses, the Muslim Brotherhood ideology, and its 100-year plan to invade the West and destroy the West from within. All the MB leaders emphasized making the Palestinian cause the central issue.

One of the people I met during my speaking tours remembers during the Second Intifada that the American campuses were so sympathetic to Israel. This time, she was shocked; everyone was against Israel and supported Hamas. The shift is that over the past 25 years, the Muslim Brotherhood has been working very hard on lobbying support around this so-called Palestinian cause in order to gain influence.

It lobbied for support through the BDS campaign on American campuses, which mobilized supporters around the Palestinian cause. Then, radical Islamists were infiltrating into the progressive Left movement, and they succeeded. That’s why we’re now seeing people from this Marxist progressive movement who are LGBTQ people joining Islamists in their support for Hamas, which does not make any sense. Israel is the oppressor, the Palestinians are the oppressed, and Hamas is defending the oppressed. It appealed to them.

This red-green alliance, where Israel doesn’t have a right to exist, has been growing ever since Middle East studies on campuses have been taken over by the philosophy of Prof. Edward Said and his book, ‘Orientalism.’ So what did you say at those 50 universities where the common belief is that Israel is the occupier and victimizer, the settler colonialist, having stolen the land?

It was quite a journey across all these campuses, speaking to people from different backgrounds. They looked at my background, which gave me credibility when speaking about the Middle East, so they came to listen. Of course, I was faced with a lot of opposition from groups like Students for Justice in Palestine, AMP, etc. They tried to stop me from talking at some campuses, including harassment, but I survived all of that.

I saw change happening in the hearts of some people, especially after the Hamas parade of the bodies of the Bibas family. Two students from SJP came up to me and said they were confused; they didn’t know what to do after listening to me and learning that the Middle East is not only about Israel but is much more complicated.

Some came up to me asking, ‘We want to continue to support the people in Gaza because of the humanitarian situation, but how can we do that without supporting Hamas?’ This shift was so rewarding for me. Over time, the number of Arab students, including Egyptians and Muslims, who came to my lectures increased, despite the pressure from groups like SJP.

Jewish students and Arab students sat together in the same room and had a conversation about something controversial for both of them and even had a debate about it – a civilized, good discussion. I consider it a win for me bringing them into one room.- 

Let’s say somebody gets you 15 minutes with President Trump, Marco Rubio, or some congressional leader.

What would you tell them about the Middle East, Egypt, and Israel?

We are seeing a very good campaign by the Trump administration, which I support, against those people who want to destroy America from within, weaponizing democracy to destroy America.

But just be careful to do this without throwing the baby out with the bathwater, which is free speech and democratic values. They have to be careful not to make America lose its most authentic and beautiful part, free speech, while fighting against those who want to weaponize it.

To be aware of the long-term plan of the Muslim Brotherhood to destroy America, which is adopted not only by the Muslim Brotherhood but by all Islamist organizations, espousing a strategy of anti-Westernism, antisemitism, and anti-Zionism. And realize that the Middle East is not only about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

If they want to bring peace to the Middle East, there are three key players they need to focus on and find ways to make them work together: Israel, Egypt, and Jordan. They are so interdependent in security, economics, and culture. Give them a regional project to work on together. It could be in the Eastern Mediterranean.

So why don’t we take the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from the ideologically dark context of the Middle East and bring it to a politically pragmatic context of the Eastern Mediterranean, which will allow groups like Europe and North Africa to be more involved in resolving it? 

Groups in the Eastern Mediterranean, like Turkey and Greece, should be more involved in resolving it. I think this will make a break from the old ideologies that defined the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and will allow the world to see the conflict in a different light that will give it a higher potential to be resolved.

That’s a great way to end. You once said your father told you to be a flower in the trash. You are certainly a ray of light for those of us who still hope the world can have a better future.■

Dr. Mandel is the senior security editor of The Jerusalem Report and director of MEPIN, the Middle East Political Information Network. He briefs members of Congress and their foreign policy aides on both sides of the aisle.